The world is divided into two categories of people: those who shit in drinking water and those who don’t.
— Joe Jenkins
I failed. I failed abysmally, ignominiously, and thoroughly. I went to Earthaven to finally — finally! — become one of the people who no longer piss and shit in drinking water. And I failed.
When I first showed up at da Shed, my landlord handed me a pint yogurt jar and said, you can pee anywhere outside, or you can just throw it down the sink. I did both. One day, I lost my balance, tipped backwards, and crushed that yogurt jar full of mellow yellow. My ire was provoked: been nearly 20 years and this community hasn’t figured out a pleasant way to pee indoors to teach newbies? What happened to those comfy old-fashioned chamber pots?
The internet is full of antiques, but not even Lehman’s, the quintessential Amish store, carries them. You can still buy nice new chamber pots in the Czech Republic and UK, bless’em, but importing or paying antique prices seemed like overkill.
I tried my stainless steel soup pot with rounded edges. Not bad, and uncrushable, but heavy and hard to wash in my miniscule sink. I finally settled for a sturdy squarish plastic storage container, 5½ x 5½ x 4 inches. Easy to grab, easy to empty, crush-resistant, and ample for one female bladder. Taller, though, would be better, 6 inches being ideal.
Later on, when the whiffs of stale urine accosted my nose of an evening, I discovered that the plumbing leading from the sink ended in mid-air just past da Shed. What? Not even a minimalist gravel pit in this wet climate, a few yards from the creek? And what happened to the idea of using urine as a phosphorus-rich fertilizer? When I visited EH in 2006, there were collection bottles attached to the shitters — simple outhouses collecting humanure in 55-gallon drums — everywhere. Now even many of the shitters are near defunct.
For the brown stuff, I was provided a 5-gallon bucket sporting a molded plastic seat with lid, the kind sold to campers. Do the deed, throw in some sawdust. Easy enough? The flimsy seat proved barely adequate to sit on. But I quickly discovered another drawback; in this humid climate, the lid held down not only odors (there weren’t any, all true!) but also acted as a collector for the condensation from below. When I opened the lid and sat down, the wet lid glommed onto my bare behind. Ick! But wait, it gets grosser. A few weeks in, I opened the lid and a bazillion of little flies flew in my face. Eew! MAGGOTS!!!
My landlord graciously offered to show me where and how to clean out the bucket. The poop, amazingly, had by now disappeared, leaving behind nice decaying sawdust. But… maggots! The bucket had to be scrubbed hard to get rid of their remains. Worse yet, I was told they’d be back. When the toilet was replaced in the shed part of da Shed, I vowed never to use it again. And never did.
As a consequence, when nature called, I trooped — sphincter firmly clenched — the half mile to the Council Hall’s bathroom. Only one problem: the Council Hall has, mercy me, a flush toilet! And this flush toilet uses the cleanest, most drinkable water at Earthaven to flush poop. Reality bites.
So, you might well ask… huh? I did. Got back a shrug. Earthaven faces a dilemma. In order to build to code, a septic system must be put in. The county is not opposed to composting toilets but insists on a septic tank for greywater. And it takes special dedication and extra resources to put in a composting toilet after all that hassle and expense. So much easier to slap in a porcelain throne and be done with it while listening to that familiar siren song… “out of sight, out of mind.”
On the other hand… Earthaven depends for its existence on a steady stream of pilgrims, and its mystique must be maintained. So it happens that some tour guides have been heard to say to visitors at Council Hall: “This is the only flush toilet you will see at Earthaven.” Technically, it’s true, because there is very little chance said visitors will have access to any of the water-closeted houses. But only technically. To my count, there are 5 other conventional flush toilets at EH, and if the trend to build to code grows, there will be others. Unless.
Unless the eco aspect of the community receives greater emphasis in the years ahead, and with it a firm commitment to the reconnection of the broken nutrient cycle so typical of Babylon.
Intact Nutrient Cycle
Here’s my question: couldn’t a pleasant, well-functioning humanure system be provided for all EH homes, including rentals? It doesn’t take much to build one of those simple toilets with a comfortable seat Joe Jenkins’s been popularizing for many years in his Humanure Handbook. But then again… there are the maggots. Aw, crap.
June 13, 2014 at 12:32 am
I find honey pots (that’s right!) are about the right capacity for a urine container, plus it has a handy handle, and the lid fits so tightly that it doesn’t slosh over the edge and down the side if you step on uneven ground and wobble.
It holds a kilo of honey, and so holds 3-4 uses, after which I snap the lid closed and carry it to the greenhouse fertigation tank.
Urine has some phosphorus, but it’s claim to fame is nitrogen, weighing in at about 11:1:1 on the NPK scale. We combine it with wood stove ash slurry, which is just about its complement (0:9:10) and then dilute 10:1 with water, creating a nice, balanced 1:1:1 fertigation that we send through the dripline on the greenhouse beds.
We haven’t gotten into #2 yet. I keep threatening, but it’s somewhere below converting a 1981 VW Vanagon to electric drive, which itself is far below keeping animals and plants alive. Maybe next year!
June 13, 2014 at 6:20 am
Twin Oaks and Acorn have modified outhouses which collect humanure (feces and sawdust) on concrete floors which need to be cleaned out occasionally. I’ve been part of the crew that does that. (I also love the names for their outhouses: the Party Pooper is one (with several seats) at Acorn and its equivalent at TO is the Poop Deck. My favorite name, a single seater at TO is called Fecotopia..
I’ve also used (as I’m sure you have) the bucket system toilets at DR. Why can’t something like that be installed at EH? It wouldn’t take a lot of work and would be better than having to do it in your room.
June 13, 2014 at 8:49 am
We use buckets like you describe for “# 2”–when the fifth bucket is in use I take the four full ones to the poo bins–a pair of cubic-yard, concrete block bins, and empty them, clean with a brush and water and the water goes into the bin, I throw some leaves on top and recover…in March I empty the other bin and use its decomposed contents around fruit trees, berry bushes and flowers, then switch to the emptied side and the first side just sits unbothered for a year. We also use similar a bucket for pee, but I empty it over a rotating sequence of compost piles–if I did this daily it wouldn’t reek but I often go three or four days and it does. No other problems with that one, but the poo buckets in the outhouse do have the two problems you mentioned, moisture condensation and maggots. However, the maggots happen only in late summer, and the moisture only under some weather conditions, and only recently–I think it has something to do with the materials used for lining the seat and lid. Maybe someone has a solution–flushing is not a good one.
June 13, 2014 at 11:40 am
Jan, do you mean this kind of a honey pot? And does it have a non-sharp edge so you can sit on it?
Wait, I gotta add the image…
June 13, 2014 at 11:46 am
Mary, I just came across a source that recommends 2 cups of diatomaceous earth for the bucket against the maggots. But the email from Joe Jenkins I got said that if you cover it well, you won’t get maggots. Of course, he is in PA so the maggots may not be as much of a problem there? I am thinking that if one did not throw the toilet paper in, it would be easier to fully cover the poo. Ey?
June 13, 2014 at 11:46 am
Vera, I do apologize that the “honey pot” I was writing about is only suitable to half the human population.
It’s about twice the size of a tall yoghurt container, and I’m sure it is too flimsy and has edges to sharp for comfortable sitting.
However, it wouldn’t take much work with a table saw to make a Jenkins-style cover for it that has a standard toilet seat on top.
Speaking of covers… the way to avoid maggots is to not let flies in. The standard 20 litre buckets have tight fitting lids that could be removed before each use, and put back on afterward. This would tend to exacerbate the condensation problem, though. Perhaps if your sawdust was really dry, it wouldn’t be too bad, but worse case, you’ve got a puddle of distilled water running off the cover when you remove it.
June 14, 2014 at 10:25 am
I only use two buckets with lead for the urine that are in the two tool sheds of the garden and empty them into one of the composting bins (as I spend all my time in the garden thats the most convenient place). The composting process is indeed accelerated.
Everything beyond that at the moment is beyond my capacity. I work 8 to 12 hours a day just to keep the plants alive (watering and pest control).
You removed a post (magnificent poke) that was very personal (maybe you removed it for that very reason). I found this post the most interesting of all, though I personally stay away from herbs that could be poisonous.
June 14, 2014 at 10:37 am
Mato, that post on poke wasn’t quite finished, I was still working on it, and I pressed the wrong button. So look forward to seeing it on the 26th. Hopefully, wordpress will send a notice to everyone this time.
June 15, 2014 at 1:01 am
You are gorgeous Vera! It can’t be easy finding the humour in humanure.
Wish I could add some helpful thoughts, but we still haven’t shifted from the flush toilet, using rainwater.
We are lucky enough to have a septic system. Drew intercepted the septic outflow, and it now illegally irrigates our orchard. So the water is reused, with added nutrients. But the residual sludge was pumped out as waste last week, for the first time in five years. It is a shame – we’ll get onto it eventually.
We try to live by the “If it’s yellow let it mellow” mantra – to a point. (I don’t want to alienate our girls from eco-conscious living by embarrassing them among their friends in the “real” world. My evil plan is to make teens love the place, so they’ll explore permaculture. You have to work your way to human waste a bit delicately with most kids.)
A fellow permie recently showed us her beautifully composted humanure in an inner Melbourne suburban yard, supporting a fabulous food garden. It’s amazing. No odour at all from the inside buckets, and such wonderful humus in her compost bins! She didn’t mention flies being a problem. I’ll ask her.
Of course, LG – a proper permie would gleefully harvest those maggots for chook or fish feed. Hmmm…. I’ll wait for things to collapse good and proper first…
🙂
June 15, 2014 at 10:34 am
“We try to live by the “If it’s yellow let it mellow” mantra”
That conserves water, but does nothing to conserve nutrients!
It is so easy to collect urine, particularly for those of the male gender. Just do it!
June 15, 2014 at 8:28 pm
Ok, Jan. The male in our family faithfully pees on the citrus. It’s a bit of an Aussie tradition.
As above, we’re lucky enough to be able to divert all black and greywater to our garden,via a simple interception of the septic outflow. It’s not legal, but it’s sensible. To me, collecting female urine would be double handling in our situation.
We’ll get to the humanure loo eventually, as we aren’t using the solids waste with this system. It’s a waste of waste!
Love your enthusiasm.
June 16, 2014 at 8:28 am
🙂 Not sure about harvesting them maggots. You must be made of sterner stuff than I, Angie!!! (Which is true in any case… )!
But soldier flies, I am sold on them. EH used them in a big barrel where we threw the leftover from potlucks. And they ate and ate thrived and thrived… until someone left the lid off in a big rain and it all got soggy and they died. They ate prodigious quantities of leftovers! And they don’t look gross at all. Chooks woulda loved them.
June 17, 2014 at 6:51 pm
Oh no no – I truly wouldn’t cope with poo maggots at all! Lordy, what a conversation to be sharing! Apologies to any breakfasters.
The soldierfly larvae chook feeder sounds brilliant though. Good to hear it works. Did it smell?
We just inherited eight chooks from a dear friend (who succumbed to pancreatic cancer). With our own ten, the feed’s become a little steep, so we need to explore options.
Fly larvae are maybe a warm season product, I’m guessing?
June 17, 2014 at 8:10 pm
Given how much stuff we threw in, it did not smell much at all. Here is what wiki says:
“In tropical or subtropical climates they might breed year-round, but in other climates a greenhouse may be needed to obtain eggs in the cooler periods. The grubs are quite hardy and can handle more acidic conditions and higher temperatures than redworms. Larvae can survive cold winters particularly with large numbers of grubs, insulation, or compost heat (generated by the microorganisms in the grub bin or compost pile).”
What fun! Btw, when I was little, we used to feed chooks chopped grass some of the time, and also nettles (do nettles grow in Oz?). And every day we’d throw them some wheat… no mash needed.
June 19, 2014 at 12:57 am
“Grain, grubs, greens & grass, and grit” basically covers it, they say. Maybe we’re all a bit first world about the “dietary requirements” of chooks these days, with specified protein to fat ratios in feed etc. D’ya think the feed industry’s having a bit of a laugh? I’m with you LG – give them good forage and supplementary grain. Rotations work well if you don’t overstock the space.
A great way to keep them in springtails and other insects they love to eat, is to let them scratch compost away from retaining terraces on a slope. When rain washes the compost back the bugs repopulate, ready for next time the girls are let in.
And thanks to all our chooks, weeds are my new bff. Whenever the tops are plucked to toss to the girls, their roots apparently release a burst of sugars to feed the soil food web. Love that!
Did you mean stinging nettles, Vera? You must have been very dexterous littlies!
🙂
June 20, 2014 at 11:10 am
Problem is, lots of folks don’t give them good rotation and their poop will burn the ground into cement. The feed companies are ridiculous. Processed food for people, processed food for critters, and they make billions.
Yeah, of course stinging nettles. They are chock full of minerals. You can dry them for winter feed or scald them and they will lose the sting. We kiddies used to collect them in “bouquets” and chase each other shrieking like demons. 😀 Good preventive for arthritic joints, as are bee stings.
Here’s a doozy: reading this in a mag from Cal U. at Berkely. “Our cities use the other 20 percent [next to ag] of our water, and there is still room to conserve by upgrading fixtures and appliances, and swapping lawns for native plants. However, effluent reuse has the greatest potential to reduce urban water use, said [some professor]. The idea isn’t new. In fact, treated sewage water is increasingly used for everything from landscaping to cooling water for power plants. In Monterrey and Salinas Valley, much of the strawberries and artichokes are grown with recycled wastewater effluent. More surprising is the fact that some Californians are already drinking wastewater. Yes, the “toilet-to-tap coctail” is already de rigeur in cutting edge Orange County and is coming soon to a community near you.”
Well! This is what Babylon considers “cutting edge.” Getting people to drink industrial and toilet effluent. Full of hormones, chemo and endless other drugs, as well as a nice coctail of various toxic substances many of which have not even been studied. Way to go, California! 😮
August 9, 2014 at 10:25 am
What I know – In Anchorage, Alaska there is an eco-house that puts the toilet seat over the basement worm bin. They throw kitchen compost into the toilet. (I wouldn’t do that) Once a year they harvest. Seems to work.
At Lazy Black Bear Farm in S Indiana, they have the “poop palace” in which you add a cup of sawdust and a cup of (wood shavings? lime probably) every time you go. They have other places to pee, and occasionally move the outhouse and plant a tree there.
For plain old peeing in the house, I use an old plastic ice cream bucket. I add water to it and pick something that looks thirsty in the garden. Some day I’ll probably demote it to a garden use – since there still are throwaways. A paper half gallon milk carton also works okay. My observation: they smell more if you cover them. Just get them outside regularly and always rinse – outside of course.
When the house is redone for insulation and more people, I will have a diversion valve for the septic – so when it’s legal we can use all the water in the garden. (This protects the architects from getting in trouble.)
I think it’s just 5 or 10 years before they are asking us for help coping with the collapse.
August 9, 2014 at 10:31 am
A worm bin sounds intriguing. I used to keep one for kitchen scraps and juicing pulp — worked great. And I remember reading of a set up with a flush toilet that went out into a slanted worm bin with holes on one side … the liquids quickly filtered out and went through progressive filtration through sand and reeds.
How the heck do you divert a septic… you mean divert grey water before it reaches the septic?
August 9, 2014 at 1:15 pm
A new book is out that sounds intriguing. The Wastewater Gardener. Some guy traveled the world looking at sewage gardens.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329800.700-a-globetrotting-watersaving-tour-of-sewage-gardens.html#.U-ZyJ2Ps9Fc
August 11, 2014 at 5:23 pm
Divert all of it without separation. The reference is b. c. Wolverton”s work for NASA space flight. Decades ago. There was a movie 25 years ago explaining and convincing. Separating gray from black water is a mistake. But I don’t know where the information is now.
August 11, 2014 at 7:51 pm
“Separating gray from black water is a mistake.”
Except black water requires more processing, no? So you can do more with your grey water, right?
At least that’s how Joe Jenkins explains it.
I also find it advantageous to separate urine from faeces, for similar reasons. You can use urine immediately, by diluting it, wherease faeces must be composted to avoid spreading pathogens.
August 12, 2014 at 11:03 am
Shodo, that must be some mistake. Urine comes out of the body sterile. The faster it goes in the garden, the cleaner and odorless it is, and the more nitrogen it has. Feces, full of nasty critters, parasites, viruses, bacteria. You don’t want to use feces on the garden without composting. The Chinese, who used to, suffered from all sorts of diseases as a result (the so called night soil application).
Besides, it will stink up the garden something awful. 😦
August 29, 2014 at 5:47 pm
Aloha!
Nice to see a bunch of women on a humanure forum- I live in hawaii and just recently started using a sunmar ne composting toilet- I just noticed maggots in it- and am sure that they’re not supposed to be in there- how do I get rid of them and also the gnat situation is worse- flying everywhere and I haven’t found a way to keep them out of the toilet- you open the lid and there’s the moisture collecting and then a bagillion gnats fly out— I cover it and turn it and still get these guys— you ladies have any advice? it’d be much appreciated!
mahalo!
August 29, 2014 at 7:18 pm
Hi Sonya! I hear mixing diatomaceous earth with the sawdust might do the trick. The gnats are the flies that come from the maggots… Try emptying it all and scrubbing out the infestation, then using the diatoms. Would love to know if it cures it.
October 1, 2014 at 7:24 am
Long delayed reply to leaver girl: urine is magic. If I’m not using it for medicine I get it right to the garden without delay. Currently I use an old ice cream bucket with handle. Other option is a wide mouth jar. Standing or squatting. I have no interest in how men do it.
Gray water is not urine. Gray water is everything but toilet matters. I refer again to Wolverton’s work. If you keep it together your maintenance is easier. I don’t want to waste all those nutrients. (Admit I haven’t done it myself yet – except old style outhouses. )
Is that more clear now?